Who should pay for dates …men or women?

I don’t think a guy has to pay for dates, but it definitely helps!

At first the guy should pay. Everyone is looking at and expecting him to pay so he better be ready. Its only cool if the girl insists or beats him to it. If he doesn’t step right up to the plate ready to hit a homer he is out.

Dutch, always.

Women need to brush up on their English. Equal is 50/50.

me too

50/50 is one thing if you’re both struggling students, but what about if one person makes a lot more than the other?

I agree with your friend who said that whoever asked for the date should pay. And I agree with you that the behaviors displayed around the issue can give some insight into the minds of the people involved.

[...] yes. Should men pay for dinner/lunch/coffee? Yes if you want to show interest. Even though some say otherwise, in terms of economics women still make approximately only 70-80 cents to every dollar men make. So [...]

Traditionally guys paid for their date.. Nowadays, things are all about equality.. So if the relationship goes past a few dates, both should take turns paying the expenses equally.

Women should pay for everything!!!!

I dated eight women that I met thru a dating service. Paid for ‘em all. Then I asked, “why”?
In a world where women expect to treated/paid equally,(no problem) many still expect that chivalry dictates that the guy pays. Seems hypocritical to me.

So now, before doing the date thing, I state that we’ll go Dutch, see how it goes, if it goes well, I’ll let her pick up the next bill. If she agrees to this … well, there is no way that I will let her pay the next bill.

Forgot to mention, if my date believes that my suggestion that she pay next time is outrageous … well, she fails the litmus test ’cause clearly she is not that into me. Saves me time and money.

I absolutely agree with jet on this. I went out on several dates through a dating service. Some acted like they were in it for the free meal.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME ? ALL THIS FOR WHAT

Dated the full range: Woman pays for everything. Going dutch, 100% of the time. I pay for everything 100% of the time. I think it’s best if the man pays for more than 50%, but not 100% all the time.

I don’t mind paying as long as she puts out…

I’m pretty disappointed with the men’s comments….Personally I think as a woman, it’s a nice gesture to offer something towards the bill on the first dates, but when the man is accepting, and the date is a really good one, I take it as a sign that they’re not very into the woman.
I think it’s nice for the man to pay for the first couple of dates, then the woman can pay for one. I don’t think you have to split bills. Everyone likes to be treated now and then…

I think Nick’s suggestion is theoretically a nice solution, but I’m not sure how this squares with actual dating behaviors. Men are conditioned to protect and care for women and women are attracted to men who make them feel safe. It’s a bit of a leap…but buying dinner is a small metaphor for this relationship dynamic…a subconscious natural selection process.

Going dutch and then asking her to pay next time? That just sounds impolite to me.

Here is a better question: If men didn’t offer to “pay for the date”, how long would a woman continue to date THAT man, or even go out on a second “date”…not many, and not for long. Even though a woman may fain reaching for her purse, she is not really expecting the man to let her pay for the date. If he doesn’t intercede and say “No, I’ve got it,” then his “goose is cooked”. This is merely a token response, not a genuine desire to pay for the date at all! This is intersting. Too bad you did not really try and explore it further and more realistically.

1. When I’m out with friends like at a baseball game for example, I don’t pay for their tickets/beers/etc., doesn’t matter if it’s 2 or 10 people. Both pay for the first few dates.

2. The study you referenced above was from 1996 (really?)…enough said.

3. Jet’s figured it out!

3. LUCY is single

MollyM said:
“I don’t think a guy has to pay for dates, but it definitely helps!”
What does it help when a guy pays for first date? Helps the woman financially? Helps the man feel chivalrous?
I agree that whoever does the asking should pay for the date’s main activity but if things are going well that the person asked could offer to pay for part of the date. This lets the person who asked know that the other is open for another date at which time the dutch rule could come into play. I’m curious what Jet’s experience was on 2nd dates. I wouldn’t “expect” a woman to pay for a 2nd date if I paid for the first… although I can understand how 8 dates in a short period of time could frustrate the wallet

Thank you Jet. You have articulated my thoughts clearly with your comment. Our world and our way of perceiving things is evolving with our adopted concepts of civilization. Some people just want to resist that evolution while not realizing they are being hypocritical. Before the man was the bread winner so he paid for everything. Quite the opposite nowadays. If a chick is making $50k more than me a year why should I pay? I know I know, I feel wrong just for saying that. But why? I realilze that a lot of females just want their cake…and icecream, and of course to eat them. Not all females of course. If you are a female and feel a “sting” while reading this then yes…I’m talking to you

Wow, it sounds like a test I would fail Jet. If you are more concerned about who pays for a date than going out, getting to know someone & have fun then it seems you are more concerned about your wallet than the person you are trying to get to know. I hope you & your wallet will be happy together.Who says a date has to be a big expense either? I agree some women can take advantage of men but men are missing out on some great women with their limited scope her. BTW…it is never 50/50. Good luck to all.

Equality means that each pays his/her own. I truly believe that a woman who is in for a free meal, feels inferior. We, men, take charge simply because it is our nature but we like confident women who will insist strongly on paying her own. I have been with such strong and confident women and that makes them even more attractive.

I dated through EH and paid many times and the man paid many times. It is nice when they pay the first time and you reciprocate on the next date. I don’t even go dutch with most of my women friends. We take turns treating. People over think this. If you cannot afford to socialize at a certain level, plan something cheaper and creative. Share an appetizer and a drink, pack a picnic and go for a walk or bike ride or do something that does not involve the risk that you feel resentful if you have to pay for the WHOLE check. Best of luck.

I expect the girl to put out when ever I pay. Usually they do.

Haha. I love how the (mostly younger) men are all jumping on the “yes!!! Women should pay at least 50/50 or more!!” bandwagon (obviously–less work for them right?) Well, as a beautiful woman, I say pony up, men. I don’t care what “newage nonsense” some women are spewing these days–fact of the matter is that women still like, appreciate and expect men to pay for the majority of the dates. If you don’t, it tells us you’re a cheap date, you don’t think we are worth it and are just plain pathetic and not worth our time.

Take it from me–men shouldn’t use this feminist crap as an excuse to be cheap and lazy. Remember, you can get a “50/50″ outing with ANYONE (friends, acquaintances, Joe on the street, etc.) and “love” and “care” can be found elsewhere too (family, frineds)–if this is the case, WHY BOTHER GETTING IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU? Think about it, it’s not brain science.

I think you should go into the idea of paying for it. That goes for both sides. Then when it comes offer to pick it up and she get the tip. The say the next time I’ll get the tip. And if she likes where it all went I am sure she will say sure… And I guess most it all comes down to is how are you trying to impress her.

The initial or first few dates should be dutch. When it’s established that a couple is willing to pursue a relationship, then the person who proposes the date should pay for it; with the expectation that the other will reciprocate.

I would rather enlist the services of a prostitute, then pay for every date.

I definitely believe that it shouldn’t be the man’s responsibility to pay every time – I’m all for picking up the check every other time or so, and insist on it. I tend to go with the whole, the person who did the asking out pays, thing. However, I DON’T agree with you, Jet. You shouldn’t play games with your dates. And either way it isn’t fair, and makes you sound like a cheapskate – split the first bill with me then pay for all of the second? No sir. Maybe “I’ll pay this time, you pay next,” but asking the girl to pay for half of the first date and all of the second makes you sound like YOU’RE in it for the free meal, whether you intend to make her pay or not. I’d definitely turn you down, and not because I mind paying, but because it sounds like you’re taking advantage.

I usually offer to pay the tip on a first date. However, i would never have a second date with a guy if I paid or went dutch- cheap & tacky. Are you a man, or not? It doesnt have to be expensive, but a MAN pays.

whoever made the date should be ready AND willing to pay.at first. as the relationship progresses both should be ready and willing. its a matter of why are you there.its shouldnt be a chore, it should be an honor!

When my dates take me out to dinner, I reciprocate by cooking meals or buying the wine.

Simple. When I meet a woman for the first time, I invite her for coffee
and pay for that. Unfortunately, my experience has been where
some women angle for a free meal — and they suggest an expensive
Sushi restaurant for a FIRST meeting. I will be upfront and tell them
no. I run when a woman indicates she’s a foodie in her profile and proceeds to talk about all the food she likes.
On the flip side, guys have to wake up! Spending alot of mobey on
a first date will not get you laid. Be genuinely interested in the person
and get to know her. If you want to get laid quickly, be funny as hell or
pay for it somewhere legal…/

The majority of women need to get a grip on reality today. This isn’t her mothers or her mothers-mothers dating generation. We are living in seriously failed economy. I pay for the coffee or the pizza and wine. If she expects me to drop $150.00 for dinner on her that I hardly know she’s high maintenance and taking advantage of me. If a woman wants to impress me she will call me and say let’s take a drive to the mountains or the ocean and shows up with packed picnic lunch. She will get all kinds of attention from me.

Very interestin comments. I am older and a widow. I spend money on manicures, pedicure, hair styling and appropriate clothes for a date to make myself appealing. I do know that a gentleman appreciates a home cooked meal occationally. However, when i go out I appreciate a man paying, I have encouraged less expensive resturants but I find men like to show out by going to better resturants, especially if they have someone attractive and are good company. I especially appreciate the men that opens my door. It showes so much caring and attention.

I did have an unplesant experience with one man. We went ot Hilton Head for the week. (He didn’t like it because it didn’t have a hot tub) He paid for the condo but didn’t pick up one check. It was Thanksgiving and we went with family for dinner. Knowing his lack of picking up the check I gave him $400.00 to pay for the group of 5. When he retured he gave me back $200.00. But the most shocking was when me stopped at Waffle House on the way back to geet ME a cop of coffee, He walked out without paying for the coffee. The waitress came running out with the check to collect. I never said a word and when we got back to my house I parted with this looser in the garage and never saw him again. Oh by the way he drove my car because I didn’t think his would make it. Now consider this…he lived in an airport community with his big house and plane. So that is my story and I am stuck with it.

It’s seriously amazing that after thirty years of screaming for equality, in a time when it’s been proven many women earn MORE then men, that the gender gap in pay is bullshit, when women have AA that gives them bens men are losing every day IN A RECESSION that’s harder on MEN, in a time when the courts allow women to bleed men dry never mind the majority of stats proving more WOMEN are deadbeats and domestic abusers, that this stigma is still placed on MEN. A single father working two jobs supporting his kids, paying alimony drowning in debt gets NO breaks. THIS guy is why we have strip clubs and need to legalize consenting adult prostitution.
ONLY a woman who wants you bad enough SHE pays and SIGNS A PRE UP who WILL SUPPORT YOU is worth marrying. The majority of women in this country need to seriously GROW UP.

To know a woman, to respect her and to love her is an spiritual journey and should not be contaminated with material, I start very simple so the money would not become an issue, If my date measure things by material standard, then it is not for me to pay for her share. “I do not have to be needed in order to have a healthy relationship”

To know, respect and love a women who has income does not mean to pay for her to start with. To the contrary, she should free the man from material exploitation, and encourage him to accept women paying her share lovingly. Have fun knowing each other, share ideas and dreams, Life is inherently rich and beautiful. Keep it simple, if one does not have a job then the other pays. if they both have income then they should share the cost. Life is about sharing and not about expliotation and abuse.
If relationship works well, then there is not two part any more. Two coalesece into one unite with shared future and one bank account.

Without a doubt, whoever asks should be ready and willing to pay. That is the absolute rule I use for any social invitations. Unless I specifically indicate that I expect the other person to pay when I make the invitation, if I’ve asked then I am ready to pay for the whole thing.

The reason this is important is because the invited person doesn’t get to say what kind of budget they’re working within. If you can’t afford to pay for the date that you’re requesting, then you need to rethink your dating activities.

I’m not too proud to allow other people to pay if they offer (depending on the situation), but I would never turn to a date that I initiated and say “where’s your wallet?” at the end of the meal.

Whoever asks the other person for their time should pay.

The man always pays during the courtship phase, until we’ve laid claim on each other as boyfriend/girlfriend. Period. I think it’s hilarious that some men would use the women’s movement as an excuse to be cheap.
Jet- you’re complaining about the expense of taking out 8 women… Why were you taking 8 women out to dinner? This is a screening problem; you should be interested in dating that person before you get a meal. Grab coffee with them and see if you want to move on to courting one of them and start shelling out to feed them a meal. You can see from the posts that the type of man who doesn’t pay is a little man, grasping for everything and woman he can get while counting his nickels. A woman will immediately take you for this type if you don’t pay and will not take you seriously. If you’re broke, think of something free-get creative. I could make a list of a hundred free (or near that) fun date ideas. It also needs to be said that women are not machines that you put money into and action comes out, which seems to be the attitude of many losers on here.
Paying sends the message clearly to the woman: “I provide and protect/look after the people around me.” I don’t need to be provided for or protected, but I expect that to be his attitude in order for me to begin respecting him as a suitor. It is a symbolic gesture that is lost on many of you guys. I can assure you that I and most other women are not dating as a form of panhandling and looking to be provided with “free meals”-Yuck! If a man didn’t pay, I wouldn’t think he wasn’t serious, or that he was trying to get laid by 8 women at once or something. If a man took me out on a date and did not pay, I would be shocked and lose respect for him. If we’re friends, then Dutch is the norm, but we’re talking about dating.
In short, get over it. There are many unfair expenses I have to undertake as a woman to be socially acceptable. It costs me $100+ to get a haircut fer chrissakes, and you don’t hear me crying.

I love what you have said ALI. This is how my boyfriend’s and my relationship has become. Even though he has been quite the gentleman and paid for everything since we met in January, we now share the expenses of going out to dinner, buying groceries, etc. And I don’t mean splitting everything in half but just having an understanding between us. When he has money, he pays and when I know he really doesn’t have it and is struggling that week for some reason or another, I step up and pay. It’s unfortunate that we will never marry or be committed to a real relationship because the last woman he was with just used him and took advantage of his kindness. It is only a matter of time before we go our separate ways because I want to be a special woman and have a special man to share the rest of my life with and re-marry someday but he does not.

For a while I felt that dutch was the fair way. Then one of my lovely friends; now happens to be the girl of my dreams for 20 years, told me to grow up!
Since then I have been treating ladies to nice dinners. It feels good honestly. I understand that a lady spends time to make her self presentable and attractive. This also requires money on her part, most women do not make as much as men. So I pay the check every-time. No questions asked. Now some may think I am fool and a sucker for doing this. but truthfully a $100 dinner once a week is not going to bankrupt me , if I had to I suppose a $20 dinner would suffice as well. The dollar amount does not matter its the gesture in accordance with ability. What I have seen in return from this is a great appreciation and gifting back in many other ways. As much as we can claim gender equality we are not. We are men and Women and both offer wonderful qualities that the other does not possess. My friend said it best. Her first date with her now husband, who was broke, poor beyond words. Living on Peanut butter with no Jelly. He had asked her out for 3 months and finally got a yes. All he had was $5 in his pocket and too his name. he took her out and bought her ice cream with his fortune. In return he has a beautiful wife of 8 years and 2 lovely children. She said ” From that moment on I know he would take care of me no matter what.”

Whoever askes for the date should pay?!??!
When do women ask men on dates? Are you kidding me? If a woman agrees to go on a date, she best be willing to pay for half. If she thinks a guy is “cheap” for expecting her to pay, a man should think she’s a “user” for not paying her share.

Once upon a time when men offered to pay for dates, it was a way to show a woman that she could be taken care of by him. At the same time women, as a rule weren’t income earners. The relationship roles were also more clearly defined in that should a relationship grow from it, it would most likely lead marriage with the man earning a wage income and the woman running the household.

Nowadays, all that is changed and different. Women are just as career minded as men and have their own incomes and financial goals. Men are not as likely to impress with financial solvency as they used too and women have more options in life than getting married and raising a family.

Because of this, when I meet a woman on a first date, I’m primarily interested in knowing if there’s enough chemistry to consider a relationship. So I don’t usually think of fancy dinner dates. I’d just rather meet for coffee or a cocktail or something simple. I usually try to arrange it so there are things to do that are inexpensive or free… like a fair or a tourist area, maybe a motorcycle ride. That way if there’s no mutual interest we can go our own ways without incurring a big expense, and if there is then I can be as financially gallant as I’d like to be.

I look for a friend first in my relationships and so I prefer to have enough conversation to know something about them and their interests in general and in me over the phone or in personal conversation, before I get to the “first date”.

Having worked with many woman and listening to their conversrations, I find that some use a guy as a meal ticket. They are in it for the freebies. Some even have a sense of entitlement. Woman want equality until it comes time to pick up the check. I find that hypocritical. I want to know that the woman is interested in me, not my $$. I pay for the first and second date, then time to reciprocate. If she is uncomfortable with that, she is gone

I guess I am traditional, The guy ( the writer) pays. I never had a date offer to pay or split the bill. I have even has a date that was akward and was asked to pay for her Tax1 home when 6 of us ( 4 were invited by heraid for by me) went to dinner and a play for the second date.

It would be nice to have someone offer, I’d probably say it’s not necessary, but if they respomded, “let me”, or “I want to” I’d let them. Maybe equality is showing up more, but being back to dating after 27 years I hav not seen it.

Look, here’s the thing: most women are cheap and haven’t been raised with the social etiquette, values, ethics they should have because their own parents don’t know any better. Fact! They want attention, they want a free dinner/free drinks/free lunch/free spending spree at the mall because “I’m pretty and deserve it” and they don’t want to commit to the date or, for that matter, to anyone beyond themselves. Newsflash: It’s a level playing field and always has been. Women and men have as much to gain and lose on a first date or a tenth date. Each one puts time, money and preparation and emotions into the date. Nobody has a special claim on that….I keep reading about how women put so much time/money into getting ready. C’mon, grow up. Get a life. Professional women, educated women know to split everything or, at the very least, to reach for their purse or credit card and then let the guy decide. Classy women, educated women, women with self-respect: Guess what? They know to split the tab or at least reach for their credit cards, time after time; their parents made that clear to them from day one. The low-class, low self-respect, poorly raised women, the”he’s lucky to be out with me”-types: they’re always going to be cheap and they’re always going to be out for themselves and no one else; they need that make up for their low self-esteem despite all appearances otherwise. So, guys, stop, listen and learn….how a woman acts toward you on the first date, the “gimme, gimme, gimme” types, aren’t going to change. Let the (low class) guys who think they can own a woman by paying all her bills, i.e. “the little woman needs a man to make her life complete”, let them pay for everything and then wonder why she’s two-timing them with another guy who does the same thing! You can’t buy love, you can’t buy affection or appreciation, and these women respond only to the power of AMEX….sad but true…until they wander off and get too old to pull this nonsense anymore. Guys should rise above the riff-raff and date classier, self-respecting women who don’t want a guy because of the size of his wallet. How superficial is that?

Not even sure how to answer this question. Do you people really only have one check to pay on a first date? I’m happy to pay for dinner, but the women I date will insist paying for drinks afterwards. We both have a good time, no one feels they owe each other anything beyond the pleasure of each other’s company.

I definitely would find it a major turn off if a guy was too cheap to pay for the first several dates…you know that eventually it will even out – so why not? It’s one of those primal things (male as provider) that may no longer be ‘logical’ but that is what it is. A man just seems manlier when he can foot the bill, just like a woman seems more feminine when she wears a pretty dress for your date. The gender neutrality thing is really…lame.

That being said, I’ve had two long term relationships with good guys that had fallen on hard times and I ended paying for everything…so yeah…the next guy I date would be great if he splurged a bit on me the way I did for others…

Anyway, it all evens out in the end – so for the guys – just pay. Don’t be so cheap.

all my girlfriends are gorgeous and none of us would ever go out with a guy again if he didnt pay for a first date. If a man wants a certain caliber of woman he better be able to pay at least more than half the time no matter how long the relationship goes. I remember i was in a store with Melanie Griffith and she was with Antonio Banderas asking him to buy her stuff. She made more money than she did and she still expected him to be the man. Women have to spend a lot more of their money on beauty procedures ( hair, nails, skin) and clothes. Men get the benefit of womens investment in themselves. If a man wants a beautiful woman, he needs to pay most of the time.

I agree with those who stated that the one who asks the other out should pay, with this caveat, when it comes to online dating, each person should pay their own way on the first date, as it is essentially a blind date.

I do not ask guys out on “dates”. If I ask a guy out, then it is not a date. It is just a lunch between firends. In other words I see him as a see a girlfriend. So if I do go out on a date, the guy has asked me and I do expect him to pay. If I do “offer” to pay it is because I am not sure that I am interested in seeing him again and I am sensning that he expects me to offer. The one time a guy has let me pay, I never went out with him again. Frankly, my opinion of him was souring through out the date and when server came asked how to split the check and he was silent, I offered to pay and he let me. I was quite dsigusted especially since he asked me out more than once before I agreed and he made twice as much money as me.

Continued,,,
I appreciate a guy who pays for meals because this is the kind of behaviour that I expect from a man who desires to provide and protect his family. A man who desire to provide and protect his family is quite sexy. Now this does not mean that I expect a continuous free ride. I am a very good cook and when I am dating a man, I will cook 3 or 4 times a week and I enjoy it. If offers to help with groceries great but I do not expect it and I do not feel slighted when he does not because I see it as my opportunity to give to him. But when we go out, I do expect him to pay.

Asking a question: I’m middle-aged / female. Two years ago, went out with a long time ago ex, and he paid, when I was in town. Flash forward, I was in town again, but with a female friend, and the three of us got together – well he joined us for dinner and had a few beers. He came later after we were there. I had set it up with the wait-staff to give my friend and I are own bills, so he would get his own, as I didn’t want him to have an “awkward moment” at the end feeling maybe on the spot to cover us, too, as culturally-speaking and more conservative he might have wanted to. The bill-time was awkward anyway, as he complained that something to the affect that I should have assumed he’d pay. He did end up paying all three separate tabs. So, it was ‘messy’. So, what I had tried to avoid, that awkward ‘who is going to reach for the check’ moment — happened anyway. I figured since I did the inviting to join us, either I should pay for him, too, or at least we women should pay our way. The breakdown, for me, was we don’t drink. So paying for someone else’s alcohol just didn’t sit well with me, for religious reasons. Any of the guys out there, well or women, too, have any insight into how I could have handled this better? I’ll have a chance to go into this probably the next time I see him, it just didn’t seem to be the kind of thing to go into on the phone with someone I see so infrequently at this point. Maybe a point — all three of us are financially comfortable professionals, and he probably out-earns us. Thoughts?

where’d all the responses go? lame.

I think a man has to pay but it is a good point about how many dates that that should continue. I never let a woman pay for a first date except one time when a woman slapped my hand hard and said that she was paying her share, I assume, she thought I had expectation which has never been me. It’s O.K. and nice that a woman offers to pay but I have told women if a man acepts he’s cheap and not a good prospect to date again probably. Last year I met a woman at a restaurant. I don’t drink. She had an appetizer, several drinks, entree and dessert and coffee with the dessert. Now that’s overdoing it an
initial meeting and not saying a word when the check comes. It was my treat and responsibility but some women expect that male philosophy too much.

I guess in more traditional (primitive, backward?) societies it is expected of the man to be a “provider”; in a more modern society, I feel both men and women should work and provide for themselves, while I (a man) should support my children only…

people my belief is that an man should shoulder their responsibility when they go on a date and the man should pay for the dates, although some ladies might not like that at all time, but man is man,ok?

My philosophy has always been and will continue to be that whoever ask for the date should pay. So, I totally agree with your friend on this one.

However, I have never been allowed to pay for a date, even though I offered.

Women should pay for their stuff on the date and the guys, theirs. Women abuse these dating websites ALL THE TIME to accept dates, knowing they are not very interested, and suggest to meet at expensive restaurants so they can get free drinks and a meal. SHAME on us guys for allowing these conniving women (which includes just about EVERY ONE of them)to do this. Let’s see women for what they are and realize they are scheming little players that just want to have as much attention and money spent on them as possible. Women expect guys to pay, and dote over them, yet guys are not allowed to expect anything in return. Wmoen “play” these websites WAYYYY more than guys do. Hey men, let’s turn the tables and have the women pay. See how things go then! My gas and my bills are as expensive as theirs and money is just as tight. Let THEM step up.

Why not every man for himself, including independent women? But I hate feminism. It’s evil and destructive. I’m looking for commitment, not a one-nighter or shack up. Paying the bill is a gesture towards care and protection. If my date offered to kick in on the bill, we would have a discussion about expectations in our possible future relationship. It’s very difficult these days to find women who understand, or even care about the Creator’s design.

First of all, unless it’s a Sadie Hawkins dance I do not believe a woman should ask a man out. I’m all for women’s lib and I can see telling a guy that we should go out somwtime to let him know you’re interested but actually asking him out is way too agressive if you ask me.
If he man did not pay for me on a date, I would never date him again. I would assume that he was not interested in me and also a big loser. I also think when a woman offers to pay she is saying that I want to just be friends.
I had one date where I offered to chip in when the check came thinking that he would object but to my surprise the cheapskate said “whatever you like”. I paid for my half and proceeded to delete his number from my address book as fast as I could.
I do think the woman should be sensitive to the guy’s financial situation and not go overboard if the guy isn’t rich but expecting the girl to pay is just insulting.
A guy that expects sex just because he pays for a date is a serious loser.

Well, well, well. Isn’t it interesting to hear all the men say it’s 50/50 or else, and that they hate being the breadwinners and women are scheming to get free meals. These are the exact same guys who, when the bathroom is dirty, expect their girlfriends to clean them up. These are the exact same guys who complain about Valentine’s Day, or that they have to do work around the house once they are married. Oh, and they never consider that, when she’s pregnant, it will never be 50/50 again. Nor will she ever be appreciated for all the work she does. If I end up on a date with anyone who speaks the way these guys do, they always wonder why I’m too busy to see them again. That’s why!!!

I am a highly-paid professional woman, and all the men I date are more finanically successful than I am (I wouldn’t have it any other way). My dates are masculine, romantic gentlemen. They pick me up at my doorstep. They open the car door. They have me walk ahead of them and open the door to the restaurant as we enter. They pull my chair out for me to sit. They order dinner and the wine, pay for everything and would be embarassed and offended if I were to try to pull out my wallet. These men are proud to demonstrate their social class by their etiquette and taste, as well as their financial status. It is a status symbol to them and intended to impress as they court a woman.

Call me old fashioned….but, I believe that men should pay for the dates. It is how I was raised, and I haven’t changed yet! Now there are certain circumstances! I am all about equality! But, I Always offer to pay for my dates. If I do not have the money at the time, I will agree to let the Woman pay. BUT….I always pay her back when I have the cash. It hasn’t failed me yet!

Man pays, the woman grabs the tip, it’s a win win relationship, clear psycology.. Both feel significant for contributing..

Agree??

I have to agree with most of the men. Women need to be realistic when it comes to dating. It is no 1901, you make just as much money or more; are educated, and allowed to vote. So why is it that we should be shouldered with the responsibility of your share when the date is really about us getting to know each other for a possible relationship. And “no”, paying doesn’t show you a thing about my ability to support a family. I could have borrowed that money from my mom that I have lived with for the last 10 years. Why are you calling us cheap for not spending our hard earned money on you? The cheap one is the person expecting/feeling entitled for us to pay because you “deserver it because you are good looking”.
And for the guys who want something after you spend money on your date. I don’t blame you. The responses of women to this question show that they are grooming us to think that way. If we go dutch, they put us in the friend zone. They go dutch with their girlfriends so any man that goes dutch it put in that category. So whether they like it or not, they are saying if we pay we are no longer in the friend zone and should expect some type of affection.
Its just a date. Women need to drop their egos. We have. Women don’t cook anymore, they aren’t respectful, and don’t want to conform to any of the gender rules they are expecting us to adhere to. Get real. If a guy asks you to go dutch, at least he isn’t asking you to pay for him. Women need to stop focusing on the money and focus and pay attention to him. Just think if he goes dutch he is saving money that will be spent on someone who took the time to get to know him.

If she puts out…I pay. If not…she pays.

Seriously Tim, what woman would put up with you for a whole date just for a free meal? Men pay for the first date because it is polite. If you can’t afford the date than choose to do something you can afford, if she likes you she will accept, she won’t say if I don’t get a free meal I’m not going!

When I wasn’t wealthy, but I did have a good paying job, I always paid. I would still pay now because if the date does no go well, I’d just consider it a severance package. In response to a previous comment: If I came to the conclusion that my date was just after a free meal, then she is a desperate person with no values and I’d be happy to pay just to get rid of her.

What happens when its a gay or lesbian couple?? Then you almost always default to who asked who for the date or you go dutch. If I ever do dinner and a movie and he pays for dinner then I always pay for the movies.

Fascinating differences here between men and women. I am puzzled by many comments. Like Anne: If your dates are so rich and sophisticated, what are you doing even wasting time on here? Personally, I like the idea of the man paying the first time and the woman picking up the tip. If it’s a concert or spendy deal, it should be Dutch. How about if you invite her for coffee, she counters with drinks (and has several) and orders food besides. Why should I pay for that when all I wanted was to meet over coffee. Men and women can both be cheap-and both can be giving. Match up with who works for you.

Paul seems to have it very backwards, claiming that “Classy women, educated women, women with self-respect know to split the tab or at least reach for their credit cards, time after time; their parents made that clear to them from day one.”

No… Classy women teach their daughters that, generally, the man pays for a date. A classy woman also teaches her daughter to only date respectable gentleman and to treat him accordingly. A classy woman feels even more like a woman when the gentleman does things like open the door for her, picks up the tab and walks on the traffic side of the sidewalk. A classy man also feels like more of a man for doing so.
As people have already pointed out, dates don’t have to be expensive. I know when I am asked for suggestions I check out things around town that are inexpensive and often free. Certainly when meeting up with someone for the first time from a dating site, coffee or a cocktail is a much safer “investment” than a nice dinner. If the woman you’re asking out is insisting on something more expensive then, yes, she does not have sincere interest in you for the right reasons.
A good woman, like a good man, is hard to find. She is definitely worth your treating her. If just being in her presence alone isn’t worth it to you, then move on. A true woman and lady should be cherished, and of course deserving of it. She will pamper and adore you in ways far surpassing the monetary.

Like so many other aspects of modern dating, you as a man just have to feel your way around this one. If I initiate a first date, I fully expect to pay and do so. Many of the fine ladies I have had the pleasure of dating, appreciate that I pay and sometimes have expressed interest in paying, but I will not let them. If I am invited on a date, I still expect to pay, however, the woman that initiates a first date is a confident lady, and as such, she may want to pick up the tab, or insist on it. Let her. She won’t be offended. I would still offer and expect to pay for the date. It just depends on the lady involved. I would not take a lady to a fabulous dinner on a first date, but would rather opt to take her for a decent lunch instead. Lunch dates tend to be less expensive and are better for getting to know someone in a non-threatening and calm environment. Most women appreciate this since they are trying to decide if they are interested in you as well. It is very fool-hardy for a man to think that if he pays for a date, than this obligates the woman to “put out”. Whoever thinks this, is a real loser and should not be trying to date women. This type of person would be better served by a call girl. For you gentlemen who cannot afford to pay for a date, try to keep the cost of a date within a certain budget by planning ahead and doing a little research on where you will be taking your date. I will say this, as your income increases, this whole paying thing will become less and less of an issue for you. Some women may be looking for a free meal, most are not. It also is your responsibility not to be a doormat either, and if things are not working out than move on quickly. You are also in control of the types of women that you choose to date. Pay closer attention before it becomes a financial burden. Most women are looking to be treated with respect, so if you invite a woman on a date, then don’t be afraid to pony-up. Regardless of gender, there is no excuse for being a cheapskate either. Treat others the way you would like to be treated.

If you are meeting from a dating site than it would just be a good idea to pick something inexpensive and go “Dutch”. As someone who is just over 50 years of age, a true gentleman, would offer to pay for a lady. But, with today’s financial issues due to the times, it may not be so easy for a nice guy to be able to afford to take a woman out. A simple date like a bike ride, walk on the beach, kayaking, those would be enjoyable second dates that would not be too costly, but would allow for time to exchange conversations. It isn’t about money, it is about a man and a women who respect each other. Some guys might want to take a woman out and pay for her while expecting her to spend the night with him, this does not prove that a man paying for the date is necessarily the best example of a good man. I would prefer a broke unemployed ( due to the economy, not laziness) gentleman over a paying creep.

I guess i am a traditional guy because i refuse to let a girl pay for a date

I believe there needs to be communication every one’s situation is different. Working together is the key to any relationship. Even it is a one time deal. There is always the free date there are a lot of free thing you can do on a date. Reach for the possibilities. But let the person know situations. Today it is not easy for anyone. So communicate and make considerate, decisions I think.

I don’t know if I’ve ever asked a man out on a first date. As a woman, I find internet dating totally unnecessary. If the girl you’re dating is very attractive/ an great person, do whatever you can to keep her, because there are a lot of other men trying. How are the women to know wether the man who’s offering to take them out, wants them to split the bill or not? I usually offer to contribute, but I’m not sure this is always a good idea on my part as it usually results in offending the guy. If they are always insistant about going dutch, it’s a bad sign. Having sex is more risky for a woman than a man, as she can get pregnant (even with birth control- there’s a risk). These days a lot of women end up raising children by themselves, and working too. I have never been pregnant and wouldn’t get an abortion, but for those of you who would be willing to go through such a deeply disturbing, hellish experience: If a man isn’t willing to pay for a meal/ wants to have sex with you, will he be willing to drive you to an abortion clinic? People talk about sex so lightly. I also always cook for my boyfriends, and never ask them to chip in for groceries. If two people are really this concerned about money, they aren’t very interested in each other.

I agree with the guy paying for the first date,if a woman never offers it is a real turn off.Dating ettiquette has changed,as the relationship grows then it becomes more balanced ,no expensive dinners until I know we have something,it is a waste of money to spend alot too soon.

I will admit I expect the man to pay, but I will also pick drinks after dinner, or the movie. And after a couple of dated when I’m comfortable enough to have him in my home I enjoy making him an elaborate dinner and buying his favorite drink (although often the men I date will insist on bringing the wine). They want sex, because men have 10x more testosterone, which makes the urge stronger. However only once was a guy insulted that it wasn’t provided. Most appreciate that as it’s a sign I’m not sleeping around. That all being said I typically prefer to meet initially over cocktails or coffee. If it’s not going well I’ll only have one and will excuse myself. I’m not in the business of taking advantage. Additionally, I thought men preferred to pay as it makes them feel strong and generous….? The comments are eye opening.

Guys do begin to wonder if a repeat date will ever offer or stop making excuses for not having her wallet. I think it is easily “played” by saying, “let me get this first one, I’d be my pleasure to pay for our first date!” Then the next time, if an agreement was not reached up front (which is sensible to avoid these shenanigans), just ask her how she suggest at we handle the bill.

Besides, if you and your date can’t talk through and be understanding enough to work out something is simple as a dinner bill, how in the world do you expect to talk through more serious issues that occur within a serious relationship?

I think that handling this situation maturely is by far more significant than what is “shown” to your date thru buying/splitting/stag habits (or one could call them hang-ups).

@Jill…well said, and completely true IMHO

I’m just super nice I always pay even is she offered in tell her I got it. Idk if that’s good or bad but i do it.

Farmboy: Has some interesting points – about if the date was for coffee and the other person wants to order food and / or drinks, too. How I have handled this in the past, being female, is straight communication. I have said something like “I know we said coffee, but I am getting hungry – are you? I could order an appetizer and share it with you, or order a meal. Either way, I’ll be happy to have a separate check come for what I order. I don’t want you to feel ‘on the spot’.” Then it is up to the guy to comment. It isn’t a trick question. Most of the time they end up order a meal, too, and sometimes we split the entrees, depends on how comfortable I am with the guy. And I keep my word and pay the other check, unless he makes a strong point of grabbing it.

It seems pretty easy to me, that if a fellow is interested in seeing a gal again, then he is indeed picking up the tab. All of it, all night. The same is true if he is not interested in dating her, then splitting the cost is appropriate. This way it’s her move if she is interested, then just take it one date at a time. But the same should definitely be true for a lady, if she is not interested in dating that gentleman who offers to pay the whole tab, then she should politely and assertively insist on paying for her portion of the date. She doesn’t have to be a broad about it, but at least she can make her amorous intention clear and save face. However, the whole perception that women spend more on them selves in self care, health and beauty is just not true. Dudes spend just as much on them selves joining gyms, getting haircuts, skin care and wardrobes as much as the ladies do too. In fact sometimes the boys’ toys are expected by the girls in order to be prestigious and a real class act.

Do Guys feel like they are “expected to put out” – if the girl / woman pays for them?

(just curious — (maybe becoming a Cougar has some “advantages”)

I always pay 100$ when I first meet a woman. I look for little signs, like if she offers to pay, that’s good enough for me. I still pay everything, but then at least I know she’s into me enough to be considerate. Never let a woman pay on the first date. If you’re so concerned about your money and not knowing the person across from you then you will have many nights with your girl Palmela.

On a second or third date I might still pay for the meal but she might pay for dessert at a cafe or she gets the movie tickets or something so she feels invested in the budding relationship. Just go with the flow and enjoy the experience. I do believe a woman should offer to pay for something in the first five dates, even if it’s small. If she never offers after several dates, I feel she is not into me enough to invest in “us”.

I’ve always paid on dates. Women have it ingrained that “just because he pays, you don’t have to put out”. And that’s true. But I feel equally taken advantage of when I go out on date after date and women get a free meal out of it. Women say “oh it’s nice to be treated”. Yeah? When do men get treated? Oh, after they’ve spent several hundred dollars on you, plus however many hundreds of dollars on previous dates to get to you, to do something that you both want to do? Sounds like a treat.

Women live in a completely different world than men. They live in a world of constant attention where people (i.e men) initiate interactions with them, while they sit idly by and wait for someone to come up. Free drinks and free meals are the norm for women, so they don’t understand why men might not want to go out on the town.

Women talk about equality, but only want it when it suits them.

On first dates, if we go to a restaraunt where tipping is appropriate I’ll normally take the whole meal and ask my date to throw a tip. It’s a small test to see how generous/willing she is.

i think the 1st date should be a 50/50 thing.. just in case the date didn’t go well I could think of it as a dinner with a friend.. and if the date went really well and the couple agreed to meet again, then (for at least a date or 2) the guy can pay.. and after that I would consider alternating the payments.. but that’s just me! =]

I’ve never been on a date with anyone before in my life but I want to ask a women who’s so tiny on a date. If you find a girl really attractive and intersting you should date her if she’s really smart and sweet you should date I’d go out to dinner somewhere in expensive If the girl i”m dating is really attractive smart and sweet I will keep her for as long as I live she will get pregnent and gets lots of really cute children I’ll take care of them. If I dated a girl I would cuddle her for ever.

If your going to argue the person that asks the other out should pay for the date, then women should stop expecting the men to always ask the woman out. Your basically saying that the man should always pay for the date then…In this economy with affirmative action, it is to a point in which women make more than men and men are not the ones with the money. Women already have everything…they literally get relationships handed to them, dates paid, and don’t have to do anything.

I think it is so sad the lack of honorable men that a woman can admire and
respect who posted on this site. One male blogger goes on to say a classy
woman pays her dinner???
I grew up in a family where men are family men who do not abandon their
families and work to support their wife and children whom they respect. I
was schooled by my father that a real man who is marriage material goes to a
woman’s area, plans the date and is happy to pay because he is discerning
marriage and wants to be a family-man in his future. The woman allows him to
give because she is discerning him as a protector and a family man.
Today there are so many men and women who come from divorced homes where a
boy grows up not knowing what an honorable familyman is. The women pay
their share of the dinner on the date because they don’t know what it is to
trust a man.
I let a man pay for dinner because I am allowing him to be the man in the
relationship. I am also giving him a signal that I respect him as a real
man. It is a man’s job to be a future family man and discern whether a nice
girl is a possibility for marriage. I would never in a million years pay for
dinner unless the man was my boyfriend. The men who post that women are
opportunistic probably come from dysfunctioinal and divorced homes where
they have no idea what a real lady and a real gentleman is. There mothers
probably never had a husband that she could trust with her life. These posts
just show the breakdown of the family – so sad…

i feel the man should pay for the dinner and /or drinks on the first date and every date afterwards,unless the lady is very adamant about paying once in a while..would not want her to feel that she is contributing to relationship..some feel like that..but i definitely think it is the man’s place to pick up tab in exchange for her company..just old fashioned..and feel that a woman/lady is worth everything and that is one way to show it

Since the subject is about the first “Initial” date, I prefer not to use the word “date”…since 2 people are just meeting for the first time. I like the phrase, “Meet & Greet” (instead of date). A Meet & Greet should be someplace where the 2 of you can; have a drink (coffee, mixed drink or soda), and have alot of conversation. Each pay their own way. If you feel comfortable and schedule a 2nd Meet & Greet (possibly dinner) then who ever pays, the other should offer to leave the tip. This is called working together.

When one person “expects” to be “whined” and dined…that’s wined and dined all the time (and doesn’t offer to contribute)…it should send up a RED flag! This is how that person is now and will always be…even after you get married…so beware.

If the Man has a good job and can afford to pay all the time, more power to him, but for the rest of us who work and are keeping our heads above water, footing the bill all the time gets old fast. My one friend makes a heck of alot more than me, and she’ll buy this time and I’ll buy next (the one who isn’t buying always leaves the tip) and another friend she insists of paying all the time…even the tip (if we go to the movies, I’ll pay then).

Its a give and take world we live in and if you want your relationships to workout, you got to work together at everything.

One woman I met on line suggested we meet at her favorite place, for lunch. I met her, we entered the place…she ordered as I was staring at the menu on the wall. I placed my order and the guy handed me the bill for $27. I said, a coffe, cup of soup and a sandwhich…for $27? he said yours and hers! She just assumed I was paying, didn’t say a word and found us a table. Needless to say after a very quiet lunch (she said she doesn’t talk while she eats), excused her self to the ladies room…and never came back! A week later she sent me an email asking if I want to “go out” again? I’m sure women have the same kind of horror stories too.

The bottom line is pay your own way until you feel comfortable enough, or until you or the other person says, hey…I got this! The rest is up to you.

I am in my seventies snd I was brought up a bit different than some of the younger generation. I always hold the door open for a women, walk on the road side if we are walking, and allowing the woman some respect. When we go out to dinner, I will pick up the check. If she insists on paying, then I tell her that she can leave the tip. This way we are both happy. At present, I am looking for another partner, because I lost my former one from Cancer after 23 years. I think that the woman should have a choice as to where they go out to eat. If she is not one to “go out for a freebie” then she will suggest a place not expensive if she knows the gent is paying. Come on ladies, have a little common sense. Don’t take advantage of me or any other guy you go out with. Another thing guys, most of us think that we should be rewarded because we paid for the date. Many women are not ready to go all the way with a guy on their first ‘date’. Show a little resoect for them also. A gentle kiss on the cheek is usually welcome. If she wants more attention, let her make the move. Don’t force yourself in trying to get a little from her.
I may sound like a grandfather to many of you, but remember the difference in age and the many years of experience.

This is an interesting, and apparently inflammatory, issue. Firstly, let me say to you woman on here what I’m hoping most of you already know: avoid these guys who think it’s hypocritical for woman to want “equality” and also decline to pay their own way, go 50/50, or outright pay for the entire date. Because behind this man’s ostensible logic is a misogynist – someone who is spiteful about woman’s power over their own existence, angry about female self-respect and self-esteem, or just downright hateful toward the opposite sex. I’m not saying every man who thinks you should agree to go dutch is a misogynists, just the ones that think it’s HYPOCRITICAL.

Having said that, I agree that the first date should be payed by whoever asked for it. It really comes down to the fact that if I ask you out I’m aware and therefore should be prepared for the cost of the date and I’m in control of that cost by virtue of deciding what we’ll be doing; you don’t date unless you can afford it. The person being asked may not be prepared for the cost, and they certainly aren’t in control of the date’s activities/cost; they very well may not be the one asking for dates because they can’t afford it at that time.

Subsequent dates should become somewhat easier to figure out. As your relationship progresses, so too should your knowledge of each other’s financial situation and beliefs.

And guys, if you’re response is that woman never ask you out on dates, and this therefore, is unfair, then I invite you to go out, mingle, and wait for the woman to ask you. If this doesn’t happen, that’s not THEIR fault. That’s like saying it’s unfair that you have to be the one to ask for a job instead of employers asking you if you want one (surprisingly, this metaphor works on many levels).

It’s no wonder why most of you women are single. It’s 2011, grow up or be forever alone.

-Happily in a relationship

If a man says, “I pay if she puts out, if not she pays”…that’s a form of prostitution. And likely eventually feeds the bloody abortion industry. Very sad and personally destructive for all participants. Understanding of what makes healthy man/woman relationships was much better 1901 style. I pay, because I’m looking for a woman with understanding…a woman who respects herself and me.

I would like to know how many of the people saying that men should always pay have a cogent argument to back up their assertion. It seems to me as though way too many people are stuck in an archaic mindset and refuse to evolve and think for themselves. What LOGICAL reason is there in this day and age where men and women are generally considered equal for men to always pay the bill? A historic precedent is not justification; generations of Americans grew up thinking slavery was OK too. It might seem outrageous to compare the two concepts at first glance, but both illustrate an unquestioning acceptance of illogical societal views.

I did see one good point as I read through the comments. It is a bit much to expect someone to pay their own way on a date when they have no part in planning said date. However, if both parties discuss and agree to the details of the date, I am a firm believer in the “every person for him or herself” policy. There have been times where I have paid for a meal because I felt like treating the lady, but I bristle at the expectation of it.

So far as the “instinctive” argument someone mentioned, I’m sure there’s something to that. However, we have as a species learned to suppress the urge to mindlessly mate with any and everyone we find attractive in public (unlike dogs, cats, etc.). We have the ability to think and reason. Why do so many people have trouble applying this skill to this subject?

I have been relieved to find thinking women whom agree with me on this subject over the years. I got out of a long-term relationship with one of these women last year for unrelated reasons and have been too busy focusing on other areas of my life, such as my career, to really worry about dating. I realize that I might be in a minority and that I might not have as easy a time finding a partner as some guy whom holds more traditional views on this subject. However, remaining true to myself and my ideals is more important to me than having a partner. I guess it’s a good thing I can function and enjoy life just fine on my own.

I’m 54 and have not dated a lot in my life. I was nice looking but shy in my youth, so didn’t get out much.

Even the guy I married didn’t take me out much–I missed the whole courtship thing. Sure enough, I lived a rotten marriage with him. He was very self-centered.

I finally got out in 2006. I had never experienced actual romance in my life, in any form, yet. I had made myself over four years before leaving my marriage, and was so excited about the world and about starting life over and finding someone who appreciated my appearance and my character and personality.

I joined some dating sites and had this fantasy that I would finally start dating in a ‘traditional’ sense, meaning that someone might ask me out and show up at the door with a bouquet from the grocery store, or might drop by and then take me to a restaurant meal someplace with a candle on the table or maybe a tablecloth.

Oh, I fully expected to pay sometimes, which would be only fair! I work really hard but don’t make much money, especially compared to the single men out there who are my age.

After dating about five men I found that these guys my age have a different attitude about paying. I was getting great feedback and responses from the men I was seeing, about my appearance and my personality, some of them getting serious right away.

However, I was also losing all my enthusiasm, as I began to feel awful about myself. The first man who took me out sprung for a meal–lunch, where he had us share a small plate of fish n chips. On subsequent dates with this guy, it was food with plastic forks, that sort of thing, even though he dearly wanted to spend the night with me. He took me antiquing one day and asked why I didn’t buy anything in the shops, while he was volleying back and forth with a dealer for a couple of $100 golf clubs. I told him I simply didn’t have it in my budget. It didn’t make any difference in how he treated me. Eventually he said he loved me, and yet he never showed up with a flower he’d picked in a park, even, or to take me to an actual dinner. I stopped seeing him.

Unfortunately, I also found that this is pretty much the norm with men in my generation.

Right now I’m in a relationship with a man who says he loves and adores me. I work 8-5, M-F. He’s my age and makes a little more than I do and is retired. Yet inevitably he pushes the tab to my side of the table 50% of the time. I’m planning on saying goodbye to this one, too.

My self-esteem has been rocked by men in my age group who are looking for truly quality women, but who won’t open a wallet to make a woman feel like she’s something special.

In the meantime, other women I talk with laugh because they are both younger and older than I, and the younger ones have boyfriends who send flowers and take them to meals and buy them gifts, while the older ones have been treated to cruises, to winery trips and nice wine, etc.

I have really begun to feel that my generation is just a bunch of cheapos. I just deleted my profile from one dating site today, and by tonight another one will be gone. I just don’t see the point. Romance is dead for women my age, no matter what you have to offer in return.

Really Tony..u don’t mind paying if she “puts out” , if I thought that was the reasone someone was out with me they definitely would pay!!!

It suprises me that no one mentioned that they were glad to pay for the date just because they enjoyed the company. I sometimes feel selfish when I pay, because I pay knowing it makes me feel good that I did something to please someone eles.

Why are so mamy commenters relating this topic to ‘equality’? If that’s the way you want to see it, then do some gender wage gap research and you will find that it is a more complicated topic than it used to be and that what it comes down to is that Americans still have a ‘gap’.

At age 54, after having worked all my life, including having owned a business with my now ex husband, I have an 8-5 job Monday thru Friday, and a very hectic one at that. I am a skilled worker with some college–and no pension plan whatsoever and I make $11 an hour. I know men in my age group who are traveling and looking at early retirement, and no way have they worked harder than I have.

My ex husband, with whom I ran a business, makes $52 an hour on a bad day, and won’t get out of bed for anything less.

When I can FINALLY get paid what I’m worth, and maybe even actually see that I can retire before I work myself to death, then I’ll be happy to pay ‘equally’ on all my dates.

Just let me say that reading the responses of the women in this thread really just enforces my opinion of how shallow, antiquated and selfish many women are. Granted, there are several who prove to be realistic and fair, too, but the clear majority seems to fall into the former category, and this is just reflected here.

Some of you women claim that men are “using” the feminist point of equality to “be cheap.” To those of you with this attitude, you’re clearly either not paying attention to what many men have said here, or you’re attempting to use this as a cop out to justify you wanting what you want, which is to have it all – to keep the scales tipped lopsidedly in your favor, reaping all of the bonuses of tradition while simultaneously expecting to hang onto the benefits of living in a modern, more gender-equal society. And you know what? The fact that you physically have what men want might let you get away with this… for awhile. But looks fade, and your attitude of entitlement from possessing a vagina will, if left unchanged, will eventually and certainly only lead to your own loneliness. And you’ll deserve it.

Now I know what you’re thinking, but you’d be wrong. I pay on dates 90% of the time. The only times I don’t is when the woman offers strongly or when I feel there’s a comfortable understanding that we can share these types of things, and we both make a decent living. I’m quite chivalrous, opening doors, pulling out chairs and showing women the utmost respect unless they give me good reason not to do so, and I expect the same in return. And expecting every outing to be paid for by me without showing any consideration or willingness to contribute is extremely disrespectful. Further, chances are good that if you’re this inconsiderate about the date check thing, that same lack of consideration and respect will likely be seen in other aspects of any relationship with you. You’re probably better off with just being some wealthy guy’s trophy wife or leeching off of the dating scene for as long as your looks hold out. Either way, I guess things tend to work themselves out, since any respectable guy wouldn’t give you the time of day outside of a convenience lay, the women who are reasonable and are in it for more than surface bonuses will likely find someone like-minded to settle down with and live a fair, peaceable, loving coexistence with, and the universe will continue its natural balance. At least, one would hope.

To answer the original question, I think the ideal situation for two people who have never met would be for the first date to be dutch, for the man to pay for the 2nd and possibly 3rd date, and for the two to alternate however the situation dictates for the remainder of the courting/relationship. Feel it out, keep chivalry alive but be realistic and fair and considerate on both sides. If you both make good money, take turns. With both sides empathetic and courteous, who pays for a meal should never even be an issue. It’s only when you have one person trying to take advantage of another that problems arise from this, and any such relationship should end, anyway.

P.S. I have two years of college. My ex dropped out after 8th grade. (He makes $52-$125 per hour. I make $11. He dates now and he pays. I date now and I pay, because the men are hollering ‘equality’. So maybe we can drop the ‘equality’ aspect of this discussion now. Thanks.

David, looks like your request for a logical reason to think that men should always pay will be denied. I’m not really surprised, just disappointed. Just to let everyone know, there IS no logical reason a man should pay for the date. Yes, it would be nice from the female perspective. Guess what? It’d be nice for the guys if the lady footed the bill as well. It’s a new day, a new age. Stop being chauvinists, ladies, and acknowledge that we are equals. As a woman, you are not my property, and until we’re in a committed relationship there is no “providing” or anything of that nature. Now when things get serious, things change a bit. Personally, I don’t let girlfriends pay for anything. But come on, stop jumping the gun on the expectations. Remember, fellas. Friends-Dutch. Girlfriends-Guys pay.

It doesn’t matter to me who pays for the date. I would prefere the man but things are changing and i’m will to change some things

On the first date, the guy should definitely pay, but it is a nice gesture for her to at least offer… Second third, still the guy, if he is doing the inviting… At some point, it is nice for the girl to treat him to an afternoon or evening that she wants to “show him her good time” and pick up the tab…. But guys, don’t be cheap… women HATE cheapskate guys.

I want who ever moderates this to email the address I’ve provided as to why my last posting wasn’t posted. There was nothing derogatory and I’m a little upset that you found it not to your liking… Was it because I sited another study discussing the same issue??

Jeana,

Thanks for your contribution. Your argument about the gender gap ALMOST works. However, as a man with a Bachelor’s degree AND an Associate’s degree who would KILL for your $11 an hour salary, I have a hard time feeling sorry for you or feeling like I have it better than women. The gender gap might still be a legitimate issue; I have heard arguments saying that it is and that it isn’t. As a poor, educated man, I frankly don’t care. However, I will give you this much: it makes sense to me for relative income to play a role in the decision. If most men make more and therefore end up paying for dates, so be it. If the man wants to pay for whatever reason and the lady is OK with it, that’s their business. However, I still have a problem with the general, gender-based societal expectation of men to pay for women on dates just because they’re men.

On a first date of course I’m willing to pay half. Or if it’s clear that we’ll go out again, if he pays the first time I’ll be happy to pay for the 2nd one.

I have actually paid for at least half of all the dating I’ve done during the past 4 1/2 years.

About 65% of the time when I go out with a man, the waitperson puts the bill in front of the man–yes, both men and women waitpersons do this. I have actually reached over after the waitperson left, so as not to embarass my date, and discreetly pulled the bill to my side and got out my debit card. Other times, when I know it’s my ‘turn’ and the bill is being set in front of the man, I say out loud ‘Here, it’s my turn, I want to treat you!’ so that he’s not embarassed not to be paying.

There are a lot of nice men commenting on this thread. Many are proponents of women paying, yet you are admitting that you actually are chivalrous and generous on your own dates.

I don’t feel entitled to anything. My comments are mostly due to the fact that the men I see always make more money than I do and they can afford to date, while I cannot.

A man called tonight and said he knows I’m on a budget and that he’d pay for dinner. I also know this man well and know that while he would pay tonight, then the next time we’re out he’ll say ‘your turn’. So it’s not really his treat tonight after all– it’s just more 50-50-. I can’t afford to have him buy me dinner, because it creates an obligation for me to pay next time, and I just can’t afford it. So I said ‘I can’t make it’.

It’s already humiliating enough to be 54 and making only $11 an hour. I hate explaining to men that I can’t afford to go out.

My ex boyfriend, someone who makes very little money, was ‘stolen’ from me by a woman who got her thrills by ‘stealing’ a much-loved boyfriend from another woman. She was spoiled rotten, a trust fund baby–her folks were very wealthy and she’d been highly educated,but by 45 she’d never worked a day in her life… and never will. She could pay for anything without flinching. But guess what…she dumped him when she found out he wanted her to help pay for things. That’s the type of woman who should be paying for half of everything, not hardworking, underpaid gals like me.

I want to say one last thing in my defense: there are other ways to ‘pay’ one’s share! Example: I’m a generous date/girlfriend. If a guy pays my way and clearly we are enjoying each other, it endears me to him and I end up buying him fun little gifts as surprises. I have bought a man’s favorite candy. I’ve tucked a funny card under his pillow. I will sit during a movie and rub his back for half an hour. I’ll bake his favorite cookies. I buy him a clothes hamper when he’s using a cardboard box at the laundromat. Get it? There aer ways a woman who is treated well, evens things out. And it feels good to do it.

But I can’t compete with women who have more financial freedom. That’s why I’m home tonight.

To Jeana Dawn and others: What I am hearing from reading these comments from the beginning….it seems most of the men have felt they have had more than their share of women taking advantage of them and getting free meals, without necessarily giving the men any hope of an advancing relationship. The women, also, have had men who could afford more, act very cheap on dates, date after date, with no communication as to ‘why’.

I’m female, and about Jenna Dawn’s age, and have some parallels in my life. I’ve had awesome guys in my life, but unfortunately, I made a bad mistake in who I chose as a husband, as I grossly out-earned him (the reverse of Jeana Dawn) and he ended up making efforts to sabotage my work (getting rid of client files, etc.) and we divorced. For the most part, I adore men…and I am straight. But the older I get, and the more I hear how jaded men seem to be, I am getting the feeling that if I want “romance” – date a woman. Find a guy for a “friends with benefits” situation – where money and who pays for what doesn’t become an issue: you are friends. I have female friends that we give each other cards and small gifts, give flowers either on line or in person if we know each other is ‘down’ – and generally, even if it is not called “romance”, it seems to fulfill that desire to be noticed, nurtured, respected, the warm fuzzy stuff that women seem to be able to do for each other “better” than most guys can. I’m stereo-typing, of course. There are guys who will try to notice if I am down, or who have the uncanny ability, with me, that we can finish each other’s sentences. But this is “so” rare.

For all you guys who have felt you are taken advantage of – on behalf of the female gender, I am SO SORRY for what happened to you. I don’t think it was fair, or nice, and certainly was respectful. I’m sorry that you were hurt, rejected, and still are hurting. Can I ask you — “what would have to happen, now, so that there is room in your heart to know that most women are ‘not like that’?

I had to realize that most men are not jerks, or out for just one thing.

(And for most of you Guys who are not aware of this — the sex thing seems to ‘turn’ in the 40s. Women then are the ones wanting ‘it’ and the men may want it mentally, but physically, after a long day of working, most of the non-Alpha types just don’t have any interest, claiming too much work, back pain, health issues, what’s on tv – sports?, etc.

Maybe it is just simpler: men should ‘date’ men – and women should ‘date’ women — and just have a favorite ‘hook up’ when the urge hits. Sure saves on dating expenses and divorce costs, and kids don’t get caught in the middle.

Jeana: “My comments are mostly due to the fact that the men I see always make more money than I do and they can afford to date, while I cannot.”

How is it the men’s problem that you don’t make much money? Perhaps you should own your financial state and take responsibility for a situation you created. I would propose that the men you know make more money less due to their being men and more due to their choosing a better career path and/or landing a better job. Just because you went to college doesn’t mean you’re going to make lots of money. What degree did you earn? If a woman has her masters in botany or sanskrit and makes less money than a male dropout who supervises construction, that’s because construction supervisor jobs pay bank and plants and dead languages tend to not. But nevermind logic; you have a bitterness to justify.

By the way, a backrub is not a payment. Nor is a small trinket or a box of candy. These are gestures of love, given not for financial assistance, but because you care about the person, want to do something for them and – gasp – might even enjoy it. To equate that with sharing a bill just illuminates how off-kilter your perspective is on this topic. You have a sense of entitlement and don’t even know it.

Chivalry is fantastic, and I am a big proponent. But the minute it is expected, it changes from respectful gestures to fulfilling shallow obligations. There is no excuse for this in the 21st Century. Anyone who clings to this today is basically either a chauvinist or a leech.

The man definitely. I just think that it is traditional

To all the cheap guys desperately trying to justify being cheap in these comments: God help me if I ever had to deal with any of your dumb, juvenile, unromantic butts–it’s called ROMANCE and CHIVALRY. NOT “taking advantage” of you…

Most of these ridiculous 50/50 or “women should pay instead, the economy is too bad for me to waste money on HER!” comments sadden and disappoint me. Obviously, chivalry IS dead as a doornail…

And by the by, I am 33 years old. Not all of us traditional girls are 50+. I am wondering if I should even bother at all with trying to find gentlemen in this world anymore…

Wow Jeana Dawn! I would be quite happy to date you and pay for every date. I am not hung up on the money issue whatsoever. You deserve flowers from time to time. Every woman deserves to have doors opened, a proper escort and the treatment fitting of a lady. You don’t seem unreasonable. I would not let a bad economy keep me from treating you like a lady either. You are a gem! Its definitely about the damn money. Its just unfortunate that our paths probably will not cross.

this is such BS!!! if the guy wants to be a man, he should act like it and pay for the f@#$%^# date!! i never pay for shit my money goes on my kids im not desperate!! F&^%$ ya all cheap men, show some class!!!

I’m a strong independent woman with a great job but I still want the man to be the man. I want to courted. I want to be romanced. Later in the relationship, of course, I would treat but until that happens I want the man to MAN UP. If you can’t afford to take a woman out to dinner then you can’t afford to date. Don’t waste my time with your feminist BS because you’re cheap. Women should have the right to vote and manage their health. That doesn’t mean that chivalry should run out the door. Ladies, don’t go out for a ‘coffee date’ cuz that’s a sign he’s cheap and speed dating. I’m waiting for the man who knows he’s a man.

Girls!! get with it!! MEN ALSO LIKE TO BE TREATED FROM TIME TO TIME!!!!! The first date?? it’s ok for us guys to treat you…..but that should NOT set a precedent!!!

I KNEW it was a mistake to enter this debate, but I just couldn’t help myself. I think debating in general is pointless; most people would rather beat their chests and fling feces at their opponents like a bunch of apes instead of stopping, considering the opposing point of view, and intelligently discussing the topic at hand. This will be my last contribution to this discussion.

I asked for someone arguing that men should always pay to present a logical argument supporting that perspective. I acknowledged a couple of good points. Jeana Dawn’s argument about the gender wage gap was probably the best opposing argument I came across, though I think her argument comes down to finances and not gender (though gender discrimination might be the reason behind this problem, if it still exists). So, thank-you Jeana for being one of the few people to intelligently argue the other perspective.

However, most of those arguing that men should always pay still fail to present any logical reason WHY this should be the case. Those throwing around the word “cheap” probably make me laugh the most. Consider the following statement: “Person A, who wants Person A to pay for Person A’s meal and entertainment and Person B to pay for Person B’s meal and entertainment is more of a cheapskate than Person B, who wants Person A to pay for Person A’s AND Person B’s meals and entertainment.” It’s a pretty silly and illogical statement, isn’t it?

Now, let’s replace “Person A” with “the man” and “Person B” with “the woman.” “The man, who wants the man to pay for the man’s meal and entertainment and the woman to pay for the woman’s meal and entertainment is more of a cheapskate than the woman, who wants the man to pay for the man’s AND the woman’s meals and entertainment.” Guess what ladies? The statement is no less silly and illogical. Throwing out the words “chivalry,” “romance,” and “courting” won’t change that. Neither will insulting anyone’s manhood.

I have a parting message for “LOL” and the women like her whom feel that they are entitled to free food and entertainment on a date because they possess a vagina and Mommy, Daddy, and the rest of society told them that’s the way things should be. As many of you have noted, the number of men who feel as I do is on the rise. Not only that, but it has been my experience that the number of thinking women whom lack your sense of entitlement is also growing (they do exist guys!). If the trend continues, there will come a time when men and women who feel as I do about this subject will outnumber the people who share your view. As this happens, women like you will find it harder and harder to find a man, reproduce, and pass on your archaic and illogical view to the next generation. Those women will have two choices at that point: to give up their sense of entitlement and evolve with the rest of society or be left behind. I don’t think women like you will ever completely disappear. After all, we still have people whom believe the Earth is flat. However, I think there will come a time when society kind of laughs at those whom hold your perspective like we laugh at the proponents of a flat Earth. That time might not come during our lifetimes, but it will happen. Evolution will occur and there’s nothing you can do to stop it.

I will wrap this up by stating that who pays is not a primary concern of mine when I am out with a lady, but it was the topic of this discussion and has consequently been my focus here. I HAVE paid for the first date on most occasions because I felt like it. I like treating ladies on occasion and they usually return the favor. What I don’t agree with is the EXPECTATION of it. I see no problem with the 50/50 or every-other-meal scenario. I’m for chivalry (when it doesn’t involve the expectation of a free ride) and romance. I would like to salute the guys who have woke up, see this inequality for what it is, and have the courage to speak out in the face of such hostility. Stick to your guns. I suspect most people will see our point in time, but that time unfortunately isn’t now.

…and with that I am done with this discussion.

Enjoy your debating,

David

David God bless people like you, intelligent and progressive as well as conscious.
I do not have the pen from my hand, because I come from a European country where the subject has been ‘dealt with probably in a better way than in the United States.
The arrogance of women in this country is beyond being moral.
The expectation has now made ​​people angry and full of selfishness and humanity is losing the attention of the research of the right value in a partner.
We have lost the sense of being together.
No one has the right to be attracted by the power of others …. no one has the right to claim to be protected … if you are not ‘losers! This applies equally for men and for women.
Who would not like to have financial protection from any problems … is like asking someone: If you could choose would you be rich or poor? And this is a question that deserves an answer?
Who would not like to date someone who looks attractive and have all paid for … do you must be a women to apprecciate it?
Please … some ‘of honesty! Intellectual honesty please!
I’m in Match and are in my profile waving the flag of our struggle.
Men’s time to wake up we are creating a world where the real values ​​are lost.

David I would like to get in touch with you, we must continue with the internet … sooner or later we will win.
Women’s equality ‘with men for better or for worse. This’ future.

Molly M said: I don’t think a guy has to pay for dates, but it definitely helps!

Helps what? His chances of getting another date with you? Your finances? Bolster society’s view that because women don’t grow hair on their chest that they deserve to be treated better than men?

I disagree with both parties not paying for themselves. If you go out with a guy, especially more than once it’s only natural he will expect sex. Also dating is expensive so why should one party have to pay and not the other. It should be a two way street by both parties paying for themselves. It keeps it non-complicated. I am a Christian woman and believe me even with Christian men after a few nights out paying for you evening they will expect something in return…and I’m not talking picking up the check. It’s unfortunate but a reality so I prefer to keep it simple.

Equality in the workplace means equal pay for equal work. Equality in a relationship means your are each equally/100% committed to exploring, building and maintaining the relationship together. People who are primarily interested in what they get (for their money) out of a relationship do not make good mates, PERIOD. Equality in a relationship doesn’t mean equal strengths and weaknesses, it means embracing the other’s strengths and weaknesses like the missing piece of a puzzle makes the whole stronger. People who are financially cheap are most often emotionally cheap, which is far worse. That being said, both men and women should want to be at their best on a date (first or fiftieth) and consider whether they are the person that the person they want to meet is looking for. It shouldn’t be about whether or not you’re a person of “means”, it should be about whether or not you are men and women of “substance” (definition: the subject matter of thought, discourse, study, the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality; noble character.

Hi there gentlemen! First of all, I guess maybe I’m old school. I would expect the man to pay for the first date, unless otherwise previously arranged. for me it signifies that he is there to take care of you, security perhaps. I would offer to pay my part but would hope that the man refuse, at least on the first date. A few dates after that of course taking turns if fine. But if the man makes considerably more than the woman or the other way around, then that person should do most of the paying. I would certainly be more than willing to pay especially if I enjoyed that persons comapny. I actually dated someone for 4 years, and it really represented who he was when he let me leave the tip on our very first date. Sorry guys but I felt it was very selfish, and carried on to the rest of our relationship. which by the way is no longer….So guys even though she is offering PLEASE PAY FOR THE DATE!!!!! OPEN HER DOOR AND MAKE HER FEEL LIKE A QUEEN…MOST OF THE TIME WHAT YOU GET IN RETURN WILL BE AMAZING!!!! Yes of course there will be a few that will take advantage of this..so beware!! Love to all..good luck in this crazy dating world!!!

Well…you people seem to think a lot about eating. As a matter a fact, I as a human do too but I wouldn’t let it in the way of dating.
On a first date, I don’t see why you even have to take someone to a cafeteria, let alone to expensive restaurants. If you are a millionaire and want to show off, then fine. But if you are not so rich and want to get to know your date then I think it is best to go for a walk and sit together on a park bench. It is also more private (even more romatic!), and your sweet-talk will not be listened to by bar tenders or other people. If you have had some walks together and you really click then the money won’t be an issue anymore as you both are just happy together no matter where you go or what you do. Maybe it’s just me, being from Northern Europe but I don’t see why someone has to pay for the first date at all.

P.S: It is reasonable to eat before you go out, it also helps you to keep up the conversation when you’re not hungry.

Man should pay the first date, no question asked, esp. when the date goes well. If at the end of a great time and laughter together, even out of courtesy the girl suggests to split the bill, if he accepts, that’s a really bad impression and I guarantee there’s damage in developing future relationship or dates.

Future dates, men still should pay most of them if not all. In the dating world man’s generosity will pay off at the end.

Stacia, we are with you. For all the women who say they like to pay for their dates, well they were just pretending hoping to tend to guys’ opinions in order for them to like them better; I guess chivalry is still an art, and not every man know how to present it.

well i guess my son just might be right when he told the doc the other night after they told me bedrest or else dad is ole timey he works till he drops! and yes i agree with the one fellow about it is all about the one that ask for the date to expect to pay i have only did one date like that in my life we are still friends but i am not a sugar daddy i was planning on paying if she was planning on paying for hers but she said ahead of time she didnt have any money so we went home and had a meal lol just to let her know you ask plan on paying but i have always and will always pay for my dates i got to back up there too there is another friend of mine i call my little millionaire she knows my financial and she insist on paying for me but that is the reason we didnt work out i am not that kind of man i have worked hard for what i have and i understand the ladies work hard for what they have but i am sorry the man pays till yhings get serious and she can and understands she needs to help when each has gotten to the point of letting each know their financial status but til then the man pays and the putin out oh well you need to grow up why should a woman pay for her meal through sex comeon get a life she should drop your sorry ass cause all you want is sex too many on adult friend finder for you a descent lady shouldnt feel obligated and should realize what you are about from the first moment and dump you and your fake dinner in your lap and imbarass the hell out of you and maybe you will grow up like i said i am oh timey lol not gonna change either i respect women for what they are and one that jumps in bed first date what can i say either they do that regulary and what desease will you end up with or did you force them date rape or make them feel guilty that sex to me is nothing at all but sex i want more than that i want true intamacy of course what your saying you dont have a clue about that do you ? i am ole timey and plan to stay that way even though i aint but 49 i have morals you had best learn them before there is no more they are faiding quickly with this demo cracy government . how many chicdren have you fathered then killed in so called legal abortion murder or areyou one of them baby daddys that never pay squat and let the government or someone like me pay for them like i have for many of the useless fathers i am not a baby daddy nor a father i am a daddy that stays for the child through whatever to raise them right and yes i raised plenty of children that had useless baby daddies that wont work in a pie shop for 50.00 an hr becuse the mothers are too stupid to put up with the trash that expect them to go on welfare and take care of your sorry ass . sorry but like i said i am ole timey i dont sugar coat nothin i got to say tell it like it is they will find out a man too cheap to pay for the date4 is not worth having. like the one lady said he is just using her smart lady beware its different after you know eaches income to come to a compromise but if he cant be honest up front then he will never be honest through out the relationship but it doesnt mean you take the date to some place that cost a fortune dates can be nice at mcdonalds lol i usually tend to go to shoneys or something similar abot 20.00 for two wow too much for cheap skate lol

Let’s face it folks the only reason it’s a win-win situation (if you want to call it that) that the man pays for the woman’s date is….the woman’s expectation is fulfilled by him paying….and the man eventually gets sex. Both get what they want. Enough said!

Joy, that’s actually a brutally straight forward way to put it, well said… But here men are crying out loud that they paid for some of the dates but didn’t end up having sex, yet, little do they know that the one will eventually turn into something more satisfying to them as well is to satisfy girls’ expectations first. Let’s admit it, not all the dates end up into something more meaningful, both emotionally and physically, but that’s just part of the dating world. The general rule is that women need romance and to be taken care of first, and then men are taken care of too. What’s wrong to be a gentleman regardless anyway? If you can’t afford date, don’t date; or just do it right!

wow I can’t believe there are so many cheap guys who think women should pay for the date!!!!! That is so pathetic I feel sorry for you, not likely you’re going to get a second date unless she lacks self respect and that happens to be your type. Tsk tsk.

I askeed a woman out. She suggested a Sushi bar. Fine. When we got there she started ordering like she was catering a wedding. She got a little of everything on the menu and drank ‘Sake’ like it was her last day on earth. We couldn’t eat everything so she asked for to go boxes then left them there! The bill was close or over $100 and we still had a movie to go to. Of course when the bill came she offered to go dutch, knowing I still have to tip and shell out for a movie I said Ok. She looked at the bill and said “If you want, I can just pay for the movie.” I said “Ok.” When we got to the theater she hesitated as long as she could to give me a chance to step up and pay again but I didn’t, so she paid. Before that, we had a great time but she never went out with me again.
She was into me before the Sushi bill came, I should have gone ahead and paid for the movie but I believe people should do what they say they are going to do, EVEN WOMAN. We had known each other for a while prior, so she knew I didn’t make a lot of money. Maybe she was just testing me to see if I was willing to spend on her. Point is, I did like her and if I could go back I would pay for everything and act as if it were nothing to me. But would I have sent the wrong message? Would we still be dating? Or would she have put me in dept and moved on by now?

This is a True Story!

I’m currently with a girl I met through eHarmony.com and after speaking with her on the phone for several hours (over the course of several days) we decided to meet for the first time. She’s the shy type and is very generous and considerate of others by nature. I don’t own a car and so I convinced her to pick me up (I’m a guy btw). At the end of the meal [breakfast at 10am], I suggested we both split the bill.

This might sound strange, but I knew she wouldn’t feel comfortable having me pay for everything. Keeping her comfortable was my first priority, I knew it would lead to better things.

We went to a movie and agreed on “Tangled”. This was also a product of some suggestion since my intent was to be alone with her. I picked a theater that was about to start in 45m. I knew if the theater had too much time on it, they’d be cleaning, too little and there would be people. My timing was perfect and we picked the top row (all the way up). We were alone.

I talked with her a little, pushed one of the arms/drink-holders up (between us) and kissed her passionately (90%-10% technique from movie: Hitch). After the movie, I again convinced her to drive both of us back to my place, where I use to live with my parents lol. I’ll omit the details of that encounter. **wink wink**

Now I know you all must look horrified at reading some of these details like me having no car, being picked up by a chick, getting breakfast on a first date, kissing and other stuff, yes yes, all on a first date. Plus yeah I technically had no stable job, and still lived at home with my parents (at 23 years old mind you), but there’s a moral to this story I promise.

I currently live with her now. If you all remember when Tangled came out you can date the time difference with this post and you’ll see how long we’ve been together. I moved in with her less than 1 month after meeting her. Yes this also sounds ridiculous but I assure you it’s true.

The point I was trying to make is it doesn’t matter who pays the bill, who drives, who makes the money, or who lives where. The point is every action and decision you do choose to make will have a result. Decide which result you want first before making any decisions. I spoke with her for hours before ever meeting her, and in one week I knew everything I needed to make all the right moves.

I wanted the perfect girlfriend so I took steps to find and secure her and a perfect girlfriend is exactly what I got.

Tailor your techniques to the infinite variety of individuals, don’t just blunder forth with a list of recommendations and a general idea of what women or men want.

Hope this helps.

LOL, MONIQUE and STACIA.
Define “Lady.” (Speechless?)
Ask your grandmother what a lady is. If what she responds describes you or any of your girlfriends please send them my way. I will even pay a finders fee! I would gladly spend 100+ dollars a night to court a “REAL” lady and never expect a thing in return.
Ask that same Grandmother what a real “Man” is. Now count how many “Real” men you know. YOUR number may be small but I bet it’s more than your “REAL” ladies count.

As a guy, I resent the assumption that I “should” pay for a date’s meal. I think one should always go dutch when dating, at least until the relationship is more committed. But one should mention it when asking a lady out. A simple, “You ok with going dutch?” will suffice. If she’s not ok with it in principle, I’m not interested in her anyway.

I must add too that I resent the implication some women have made that I am “cheap” if I don’t want to pay for the date. As David rightly (if wordily) said, the person who expects their own meal to be paid for is the one who is cheap. The subtext of all of this is the expectation that the man is to be the “provider,” and we all know what that means.

I do not find that romantic but an onerous burden. I do think that paying for a friend’s meal is a nice thing, but the problem is, in dating, one never knows if one will see the person again, and therefore, for the man to always pay is unfair.

If I could know ahead of time that *this* woman is THE woman, and it will work out into something REAL, then I wouldn’t mind so much paying for the FIRST (but not every) date. But I can’t know that.

Ladies, Look at it from a guy’s perspective.

Say a guy dates 10 girls in the time before he finds “the one”. He takes each of those girls out for an average of 5 dates of the dinner and a movie type. He pays about $100 per date, including: dinner, tip, movie, drinks…

10 x 5 x 100 = $5000 just to find out if ONE of these 10 girls is someone he could possibly marry.

Most guys have dated more than 10 girls.

If you’re not willing to do your part to figure out if the two of you could have a happy life together…

You have a problem, not the guy.

A distinction should be made between a first meeting arranged through the internet and a traditional date where a guy asks a girl out.
When two strangers meet for the first time, it should be strictly 50-50. The idea that one of the attendees should be assumed to pay for both is absurd.
In a traditional boy-meets-girl and the boy asks the girl out, the boy normally pays unless the girl insists on helping out. If the boy is really interested, he will want to pay.
In a longer term relationship, and assuming both man and woman are employed, the cost for one party to be expected to pay every time would be financially prohibitive. They should share the costs. Either switching each time, or both putting approximately half of the bill on the table, including tip. Don’t quibble over a few buck either way.

We can share the bill – IF we “are only friends” – w/o the benefits. If you are DATING me – YOU pay – still no benefits included. Sorry, but I never have to pay, so if you are the first one asking, I won’t be seeing you again. And I am not demanding boutiques here. A place that suits your level of income is fine with me. I am also fine with only a cup of coffee – that is if it is coffee time. If you make the date over lunch or supper time, then I assume it is lunch/supper. Hey I’m fine with chips and ice cream… as long as you pay. But if you are driving a Ferrari and take me to a “cheap” spot – well then I know you are not that into me and I won’t waste my time….

In response to “…it’s a win-win situation (if you want to call it that) that the man pays for the woman’s date is….the woman’s expectation is fulfilled by him paying….and the man eventually gets sex. Both get what they want.” Is sex something only desired by men and offered by women as a form of payment for fulfilling expectations? I hope that women have a higher sense of self worth and that this is not a general consensus! In my opinion, the only difference between the aforementioned verbiage and the established definition of prostitution is that the man has no idea what the “agreed” price is in advance. In closing, I feel that anyone displaying as much hostility as I see in some of these posts would be better served by MMA training than dating.

Thank god I am a millennial!

The women who expect the man to pay for dates (even first dates) are so incredibly backwards that they meet their own grandmothers in social evolution.

Men do not need to “provide” or “protect” for women they are dating. Dating is to see if there is any compatibility in terms of personality, interest, values etc. Money has nothing to do with this!!

And the men who consent to this world-view are only doing it out of self-interest. They are afraid of not getting future dates or being called “cheap” for not handing out free meals, and concerned that they will never have sex again if they stood their ground.

Thankfully younger women are starting to wake-up and change their dating expectations. It’s do that or die with cobwebs in your vagina.

Thank you.

Man am I from a diffrent generation. I have just ended a 35 year marriage, but before that never have I ever ask a guy out. I have also never paid for my date. Where have all the men gone?

hmm, early dates where the man initiates and selects the restaurant relative to his budget and pays is, I believe the best way in the beginning. Many men know this. Its strange, but the minute a guy asks for money on early dates, any romantic feelings morph into buddy and plutonic feelings. Later on, belive me I will take him out or cook… When I whip out my wallet after a date, I am in essence stating that I am NOT interested in you. its funny but that just the way it goes…

you know, on the first 4 or 5 dates, even though I am tempted to offer to pay for moi, IF they take my money or ask for money, I suddenly feel that out ‘date’ shifts from romance to buddies. Men and women will NEVER be equal purely bc of biology. And this is a good thing. A man who asks me for money when the bill comes tells me that he isnt interested enough to design a date that works in his budget and take control of the evening and pay for it. Dutch is NOT sexy at all until you are in a couple. If I am planning and paying, shees, I would rather hang with my girls! just sayin.

I for one embrace gender differences and think there is nothing more sexy or masculine than a man taking a little charge, initiating the date, planning it, and treating his lady like a lady.

A woman can reciprocate femininely by spending hours in the kitchen by cooking him his meal and taking care of him that way.

There is no such thing as gender equality. Men, your masculinity is what attracts feminine women. And vice versa. If you’re a man and you want to take on the traditional female role, be prepared to attract masculine women who are more domineering.

I have never had to pay for any dates. And I am a very successful woman who owns her own business, a self-made woman who is also very attractive, stylish and likes to be feminine. I was chief editor of a women’s journal at my college and equality and power of genders used to be hot topics in my undergrad and grad days. I am currently at the top of my game both professionally and personally and feel lucky to have many suitors. I go for alpha type men who are ambitious, natural leaders, think big picture and don’t sweat the small stuff. To me, that’s a man. And I appreciate the gesture and thoughtfulness of a man who makes a decent living who pays. Sure, if the woman wants to pay that’s fine too. But if it’s going to bruise his psyche if she doesn’t..grate on his nerves…halt their courtship…then that’s just simply an individual with some hang-ups that’s going to cause some erroneous riffs in the future. Keeping tabs on bills is the small stuff. In marriage I believe in sharing assets (that’s my contribution to the bigger picture) but holding onto belief systems (for both genders) that stymie quality time to get to know one another is just plain inefficient and unromantic.

First off I want to say from a woman perspective I really appreciate when a guy pay for the first date. That being said, I feel really sorry for guys. Especially if all they think we as women want from them is a free ride. And they use it as a means to get in my pants. Totally not going to work for me.

I’m also going to say that money in whatever form makes things complicated. But it is part of our lives. I have to say being generous is a huge turn-on for women. We value safety and security more then anything. When you can make us feel these things it make you seem more desirable. There is a difference between be cheap and being fruggle. Especially when you are that tight-fisted with money.

I’m not saying that I haven’t been on expensive first dates. But I am of the philosophy. Not all fun dates or first dates have to cost money or very little at all. Especially if your meeting for the first time. Its not going to cost that much to find inexpansive and creative ways to have fun together.

Beside first dates especially if they are blind dates or just meeting the first time. Its about making personal eye contact, learning more about one another.

Beside each having one drink or an icecream cone is not overbudget. Or while listen to a free outdoor concert. Not going to break a guy budget. Beside I am of the philosophy you should save those expensive dates for special occasions and what I like to call just because. They can make them more meaningful.

Linzy

Dating to me is more about getting to know the person. And finding out if you are compatible with one another. Especially when your dating with the purpose of wanting it to be long-term relationship.

I am a really hard up writer and if I had to pay for even half my dates then I wouldn;t be able to afford to go out. Most of the men I go out with are better off than me so i feel no guilt in letting them pay (and actually I think men like this inequality I think it makes them feel good to be protecting someone) My current boyfriend though is as poor as me and so we’ve always gone Dutch (although he paid for the first date), but now he’s just got a new contract he wants to start treating me (and who am I to refuse). I do agree though that some women treat men as a meal ticket.
Advice for guys, if i offer to pay on a first date I’m trying to make sure that I don’t feel at all obligated to the guy because i don’t like him that much.
As for Jet I think putting it so bluntly would put many women off. If you said on the second date ‘will you get this since i paid last time.’ would be acceptable and if she refuses just pay your half and walk out.

This is a very confusing issue. However, I can safely say a man paying for the dates, does not show that he is interested in the woman at all. I am not sure if Tony was just trolling, but he brings me to a point.

Many men pay, and then expect something in return, either on the first date, or many dates later, after he has gained her trust. This happens very often.

By the same hand, men who do not pay are not necessarily uninterested or unappreciative of your company. Many of them are a lot more decent than the “gentleman” who paid for their meal.

So, this leads me to believe one of two things.
1. Women who believe in this theory are stupid, and truly believe in this bullshit theory.

2. Women who believe in theory, just don’t want to pay for things if they don’t have to.

What else could it be?

Moving on, I would also like to say that the, whoever invites should pay idea is a good one, in theory.

However, good luck getting a woman to ask a man out, before they are more than a month into the relationship. Since the man is going to be the one doing all the asking, for a long time, the sole responsibility of financing the dates, rests upon him. This, whoever invites pays, is good. However, if you want to go that way, I think that women should stop being shy about asking men out on dates, even early on in the relationship.

Me agreeing to the, both parties pay for themselves idea, is a little more within reach, at this point.

I have no problem paying, and generally expect to pay. However, more & more frequently my date has the expectation that I will pay, from the first date on. Even if we just met. I do get the feeling that many women just want a free meal. So I will no longer meet a woman for dinner, only for coffee. If she declines, I move on.

I think you should do what you feel comfortable doing. If you feel strongly that you should split the bill, bring it up. If it’s not an issue, foot it yourself or wait an appropriate amount of time and see if the other person offers.

If it’s that big an issue either way, it doesn’t hurt to see what your compatibility is in this respect, right?

Personally, though, this is why I like going out for coffee/drinks for a first date. It allows for there to be ’rounds’. I know men tend to prefer to pick up the tab as it is ‘expected’ but I can at least buy him one drink or some tapas/cake/etc. as is appropriate. However, IF he DOES insist on picking up the tab, whether he wants to or just feels social pressures to do so, I don’t need to worry too much or feel too bad because I know it’s not going to be something very large and I can just smile and graciously accept and still feel delightfully ‘spoiled’ .

What an eye-opening discussion. I am a financially comfortable 62-year-old widow who has been dating for two years. I like first dates to be for a glass of wine only, and we can retreat or linger longer if we so choose, depending on how it goes. I do expect him to pay. I can afford my own glass of wine of course, but I see his willingness to pay for both as an inexpensive litmus test of his romance potential and his interest. Interestingly, I find myself taking turns paying for dinner and tickets as the relationship moves forward, which is fine, but have found myself cooking wonderful dinners for men who expect me to pay for dates half the time but who expect in-home meals to be on me 100% on me, and don’t even show up with wine or flowers ever, and I find myself feeling taken advntage of, not courted. So, gentlemen who want equality and romance, if you want 50/50 in the age of equality, you had better invest in your romantic gestures, like flowers, cards, wine, and cooking for her once in a while. The excuse that I have more money than him won’t hold water for most women. If you are that bad off, you are dating out of your league. No grown up woman wants to date a man who needs a woman to pay his way any more than you want to pay hers. If you can only afford to split one order of fish and chips, don’t zero in on women who are in a different place financially, because in the longrun, you have different lifestyles. One huge hint I see in online profiles is when a man states, ” Money is not important to me.” That equals “I don’t have
any.”

whatever happened to trying to impress the other person? I am speaking to both genders here. If the main concern is who is going to pay, just stay home by yourself and you have answered the question. If you are interested in having a relationship, then try your best. Guys pick up the check! Women, please stop making us look like gold diggers! Offer to cook the man a meal after a couple of dates or pick-up tickets to something you know he will enjoy. Play nice, remember you are trying to establish a relationship.

I usually pay on a first date with a gentleman. If I allow him to pay, that’s means that I would love a second date;) After that, I love that we both try to spoil each other, according to our means.

If I am not yet in a relationship, I prefer to pay my own way. I don’t see why a gentleman I have never met, who may or may not be a good match for me, needs to pay for my meal/drinks. A cup of coffee maybe, but it can cost $50 – $100 and we are strangers.

When the guy pays, in my mind, there is some sense that some thing already exists between us and, in reality, we are trying to see if anything can. If there are one or two dates, he paid and I’m not interested, I would not feel good about that.

I think first of all, whoever ask the other out should prepare to pay for it all with the other person offering to pay their part, but the initiator should decline. Being the initiator, you also are the one deciding where and what you would like to go and do on the date so if you are concerned about your wallet, you should already know what you are offering the date to be like.

In general, many women in this country are just as financially capable, if not more than a man. While women have higher expenses to prepare for a date, men have the higher expenses in preparation for a serious relationship. Why you ask? How many men will mind a woman doesn’t have her own place and a decent vehicle than the other way around?

In general, the focus should be on the date and not the money. Men should always feel they have to have a higher financial burden than the women, but the latter should respect and love the previous and chip in.

If a woman is going to complain about not enough from a man, then a man is better off not wanting to be with that woman as she will just be a burden and pain in his life. If the man is going to be expecting the woman to do half of everything, than you as a man are also not living up to your role of being a man and taking care of things.

Nothing should be 50/50 but it shouldnt be lopsided either. A loving woman will be happy with the man she is with so long as he is doing his best to be with her and love her to his fullest. If she expects an unrealistic lifesytle that she cant even afford by herself but want the man to provide, then men you are better off without her. If a man expects to be part of a woman’s life but isnt going to bring her life better be in various ways, then she doesnt need him.

It is give and take people and if money is coming up that quickly and often as an issue, then you probably should reevaluate the situation.

If a woman expects me to pay for her meal, then I expect her to follow traditional gender roles, too, and quit her job, raise my children and remain in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.

Women use every tactic in the book to keep the traditional roles that work in their favor. They shame men (i.e. calling them cheap or not a real man), they manipulate men (i.e. insisting that “whoever asks, pays”, even though men generally do the asking, and women know this), and they try to get us to follow their ridiculous protocol (i.e. telling us that by paying for dinner, it shows we are interested in you, and can protect and provide, even though paying for your dinner isn’t necessary to prove either of those things. Besides, it’s 2011, we are not supposed to be your providers anymore. Get a job!).

Face it, ladies, most of you are sexist, weak, dependent little girls. You need to adapt with the times. Chivalry or equality: Pick one.

I pick chivalry. I’d love to stay barefoot and pregnant for the man who loves and cares for me. And on top of it all, I’d still do my darndest to be as pretty as the day he chose me! Exercise and healthy eating and thinking. Always positive…children included. Who needs a true wife?

I cannot believe some of these comments. Before you make an uneducated comment know what you are talking about. Women are far being equal. For example, in 2008 women earned less in ALL 20 industries and 25 occupation groups. With an average of 77 cents per a man’s dollar and it is projected that women will not earn equal pay till approx 2050! Women don’t have equality in congress, we comprise 51% of the population but only 17% representation. Only 12 women are CEOs in fortune 500 companies and it is not because they are less qualified. The glass ceiling effect is very real. I could keep going with many examples that are more in depth but it is not my job to educate you. I suggest you know what you are talking about before you make comments to prove your point. Your not, especially when someone educated on the subject reads your comment. Also, I am not a women who thinks I deserve a free meal just because I’m on a date. I have been on dates where I paid and dates where he paid. Generally I think who asked for it pays for it and then you go from there. I do not think I deserve a free ride. I want any financial success I have to be 100% my own. I don’t need a man and I believe many of you men who say things like that, think that’s what all women want. You are extremly wrong and I suggest you get better at screening the women you talk to before you go on a date but maybe your attracting class-less women because you are. Class-less people attract class-less people because those with class wouldn’t even consider dating you. Also, just because you pay for a date does not mean she needs to put out. That is just disgusting and your mother would be ashamed if she’s a woman with self-respect. Also, how would you feel if any little girl you know and might be in your family grew up and that’s what was expected of her? I would hope it would disgust you. Think before you speak because your words are shamefull.

I’m surprised how many people have poor grammar and misspellings.

I am starting to date again. I got busy for a few years. I get along with men very well, I just haven’t “dated” for a while. My thoughts about paying on the first date is to discuss it before the first date. I would like to hand off about half of the date’s expense in cash to the man at some point in the date. This is my investment. I am willing to go out with this person and invest in our time together. We are both investing in dating & relationship. Every date will provide something to learn about people. Also, in light of this bad economy – I do not know the financial situation of this person. And – on the first date – I don’t want to know!!! I am supposing that it will take dating many people and for quite a while, before I find someone special. To find a mate is an investment of time and treasure. I take financial responsibility for my all my projects and endeavors. I am choosing to have a dating project this year. I will pay my portion of my expenses. Many men blow up and refuse my money. I hate fighting or fussing about this on a date or get-together. But when they refuse my portion – - I don’t like it!! Money is a huge subject full of manipulation and problems. Women KNOW that some men manipulate us through paying our way. There is ALWAYS got to be a good return on the investment. What you may want in return – I may not want to give you! As for me – if the man doesn’t let me take responsibility in the beginning stages of dating – he is not allowing me to be myself. He is ignoring and insensitive to who I am. I am a responsible person, financially and every other way. I am in this date 100%. I am not working you or making a game out of this. I not asking for anything in return. Be a nice and interesting date. I think the men should allow women to be responsible. If the money isn’t flowing here or there- fine, create an inexpensive date. I want both people to be REAL.

I’m only 20 years old so it may just be that I come from a different generation, but it is shocking to me that there are women that don’t believe in going dutch from the start. Women who refuse to go dutch come off as traditionalists, dependent, and pathetic. If she isn’t willing to carry her own weight, she is looking for a sugar daddy, not a partner. That said, I usually date men so it may be that the gender dynamics are too different and I will never understand. All I’m saying is that women that expect the man to pay come off as submissive and pathetic.

I pay for the first date. But if the woman doesn’t offer to pay her own way on the first date, she puts herself into a certain class of girls. I call them fun girls. I don’t take them seriously for a relationship. If they are pretty, I might keep them around to attract more suitable partner material. Of course, I don’t tell them they are just a tool, since most of them are just using me for a free meal. Let the users be used is my motto.

I consider myself an open minded person and believe in equality in general. In my dating experience I usually make known early on that we could share the expenses, and do so especially after a couple dates, unless my date insists. In any case I always offer to pay my share from the start, though I do enjoy and appreciate being treated if he is happy to.

However, recently I did experience feeling not so great when the guy more than eager to take my offer. So here’s a real life example on the topic, from which I learned a bit about myself and the topic. It was a first date. He suggested it, and choose a restaurant that to me a bit too price for a (I suggested “casual” first date) but he emphasized on “great food” so I went alone. As usual I offered I could pay my share. He quickly said, OK. The date went okay. When the bill came, he sent the waitress back to split the bill. I paid half the bill (a bit more than my food but no big deal). At parting, when he said we shall do this again, I found myself not feeling enthusiastic, and to be honest, the bill issue was part of it.

This surprised me a bit, as I usually do not feel bad when splitting bills with my dates. And if they would insisted paying, I would offer, and mean it, that I could pay the next time. But this one… I guess it has something to do with his eagerness in accepting my offer, and making sure the bill split, on top of that he asked for the date and picked his favorite/pricey restaurant. I guess though I pride myself of willing to share expenses for dates, in this case I did feel that he should at least insisted a bit to pay, then I would be happy to pay my share or pay for the next date. But as it went, there wouldn’t be a next date, not just the money, but the …

If the two people on the current date are actually interested in each other, then the person who earns more money should probably pay for the meal. There’s still a wage difference.

As a feminist, I feel very strongly about standing on my own two feet and paying my own way. As a woman, however, I do enjoy being courted. However, re. equality: we still do not live in an equal society. Women still do not earn equal pay. Women pay more for equal services such as haircuts or tailoring. Women are expected to maintain a certain standard of beauty (shaving/waxing legs/underarms, tweezing brows, wearing makeup, getting facials, etc.) that can be costly. Women’s clothes/shoes/jewelry tend to be more expensive than garments for men. Until all these factors are truly equal, I am ok with a guy paying for a few dates while I chip in for drinks or pay for every 3rd or 4th date.

I totally agree with Melissa, it’s very expensive being a woman and all the grooming and clothes necessary to look nice for your date! As a generalisation women do not earn anywhere near the same amount as a man.I can’t believe the comments that the men on here have made, but its plain to see why they are single!!!

I meant Marissa not Melissa

Women should never HAVE to pay. I never paid , but broke tradition and treated a date to a men, and what do you know, he thinks I’m always going to pay. WTF!! And is slow to put his wallet down when I do make him pay. I mean jeesh… mans role is to provide, protect and profess. Get with the program guys!! If you can’t afford to pay, you shouldn’t be dating that much.

I think a lot of it comes down to managing expectations and this applies to both men and women. They should probably discuss what both want and need before hand. While this might seem unromantic(maybe the sexual equivalent would be discussing safe sex or the act of putting on a condom which could interrupt the romantic aspect of getting it on)but it’s important for both parties to discuss what their values are and what their expectations are. As a man you are expected to initiate but you also get to decide where you get to meet. Instead of a dinner date the first date could be a cup of coffee. If that goes well you could have a picnic, go to a play, go bike riding, or a dvd and dinner at your place or her place. If you cook for her something nice that would impress the right woman more than any dinner or movie date.

I am probably going to anger a lot of women on here to advocate for equality and what not .But if I am paying for a date, i equate it as I am paying for sex. The act of prostitution entails paying a women for sexual services. If a guy pays all the time then he is entitled to think so. Do you want to know why?Well last time I checked paying for dates , does not really tell a women , that a man can or cannot take care of a women. He could be 500k in debt, he could be a gambler, or he could just offer to pay and he could ditch you if you are pregnant, oh wait but he paided for dates all the time .Now wait a minute that sense of logic of paying for all the dates is illogical in today’s modern era. Is it not that women work and earn there own money. But oh wait women do in fact spend more money then men on maintaining beauty, but wait a minute , who said you have to do that . I guess your just buying into media. It has been found that due to the greed principle more women are employed then men in this current recession.For the record I am not a cheapo or a poor guy . I do very well.But back to the point, it is not my problem you spend a lot of money to maintain yourself ,it could just mean your really not that attractive and have to deceive men in order to bed with you , or have interest in you. Those that claim its romantic for gentlemen’s thing to do well I hate to tell you , you equate money= romance, I thought romance was about creating a moment ,and all these supposed great lovers never talk about paying for dates, they just create a experience that many men cannot. It is kinda sad to see women have a double standard and a bit hypocritical . I have had women whom expect me to pay all the time ,and when I do not they start to loose interest. What this tells me is women are after money , plain and simple . I have yet to meet a girl that surprises her boyfriend with say baseball tickets or surprises. We always have to surprise you and if we do not we are “cheapos”, Where is the equality huh? If you want a man to be able to take care of you ,then please press rewind on the time era and go back to the 1930’s or possibly earlier. I still do not understand how money=security for women if a man pays, so your telling me that you do not value character over money, you build a image of the person after they complete your criteria . Character and how a man handles situations is more important then money ,because he could hit rock bottom and if he is mature he can survive and succeed. Cannot say the same for a lot of women out there no offense. The Cinderella story is simply a fairy tale , how can 3% of the world that are “princes” marry the remaining 97% of the women , who think they belong or deserve to be part of the 3% . Here is the thing, I never judge a women how much money she makes , I like her for her , but if I flip the question , most women would not say that . I always find it funny how women porn in the 80 and 70s still hold on to 50s and 60s values that really do not apply to the 21st century. Oh and do not get me started on the list that women have , on what they want in a guy , do you gals even match say 10% of your list?